Richard Gadd, Jessica Gunning of 'Baby Reindeer' win their first Emmy Awards

Richard Gadd was probably the most surprised winner of the night at the 76th Primetime Emmy Awards when he won Best Movie/Limited Writing and Best Movie/Limited Actor and his TV series "Baby Reindeer" won as Best Limited Series of the night.

The 35-year-old Scottish actor-writer-creator of the hit Netflix TV drama series "Baby Reindeer" wore a plaid green and blue kilt to pair with his tuxedo suit which bears a white pin that read "We Are Survivors," referencing the charity in the United Kingdom that supports male, trans, and non-binary survivors of sexual abuse, rape and sexual exploitation across Greater Manchester. (He will talk more about this charity with us below.)

Based on Gadd's personal experiences, which he first wrote in his one-man Edinburgh Fringe play, "Baby Reindeer" follows the struggling comedian Donny Dunn (Gadd) and his warped relationship with a female stalker, Martha (Jessica Gunning, who also won her first Emmy Award for Best Movie/Limited Supporting Actress).

When he won his first award for writing, Gadd said, "This is the stuff of dreams."

He added, "Ten years ago, I was down and out. I never thought I'd get my life together. But I learned nothing lasts forever. No matter how bad it gets, it always gets better. Keep going, and I promise you, things will be okay."

After winning his second award, the Best Actor, he started his speech by saying he did not prepare one because he didn't expect to win over co-nominees Matt Bomer ("Fellow Travelers"), Tom Hollander ("Feud: Capote vs. the Swans"), Andrew Scott ("Ripley's") and Jon Hamm ("Feud: Capote vs. the Swans").

He confessed, "Jon Hamm, I'm your biggest fan, as I told you for ages last night, over and over again." Then he realized he forgot to thank his parents and added, "I'd like to thank my mom and dad — a glaring omission from the previous one. They've been there for me, a constant source of love and support. The thing I'm most grateful for is they've never, ever told me what I needed to do with my life, and they never, ever told me who I needed to be. And I think that's the greatest gift a parent can give a child."

He revealed, "They always said, 'Follow your heart, and the rest will fall into place.' I think it's good advice."

As for the 38-year-old charming British actress Jessica Gunning, she profusely thanked her co-star and producer-creator Gadd for "choosing me to be your Martha."

She admitted, "I honestly feel like I'm going to wake up any minute now and this whole thing has been a dream!"

Wearing a black velvet gown with a plunging neckline and blue floral appliques, Gunning said, "I've tried so many times to put into words what working on 'Baby Reindeer' meant, and I fail every time. So, I'm now going to sing…" and she breaks into her now famous laughter.

She continued, "No, imagine…I'll keep it simple and just say thank you for trusting me to be your Martha. I will never, ever forget her, or you, or this. It really means a lot, so thank you, Reindeer, and thank you for this award."

We were able to interview Gadd and Gunning a day before the Emmy Awards at the Golden Globe Foundation discussion on behalf of their We Are Survivors Foundation. Below are some of their thoughts on why they are supporting We Are Survivors, and their thoughts on mental health among others.

How did you get involved in We Are Survivors?

Richard: Back in 2016, I did a show called "Monkey See Monkey Do," which was a live comedy show about being sexually abused and all the kind of stuff that's in Episode 4 of "Baby Reindeer," if everyone's seen it. I did a comedy show about that. Up until that point, I carried that secret around with me for so long in my life. I'd heard of this idea of art as catharsis, but I'd never tried it out myself, that autobiographical sort of thing. So, I took a show to Edinburgh in 2016 and did a comedy show. It was a very mad comedy show. I ran on a treadmill for like an hour and was getting chased by a monkey. Hard to explain.

But it was where I came clean with the sexual abuse that I'd suffered. Out of that, Survivors got in touch and asked me to be an ambassador for the charity. I've been an ambassador for them ever since. I've done fundraising events and, of course, twin them with my work, getting them involved. They've been very involved in "Baby Reindeer." I've got them as official partners on the Netflix website now and they've had a lot of traffic as a result of that. But they're an amazing charity and they've helped me. I've used their services in the past as well so I can vouch for them first-hand in terms of the help that they give you as well. So, I'm very proud to be part of We Are Survivors.

Jessica: My introduction was obviously through Richard and doing the show "Baby Reindeer." I saw Richard's play "Monkey See Monkey Do" at the Soho Theatre back in 2018 and I was blown away by him as a performer. Also, his story and storytelling capabilities. When the audition came through for "Baby Reindeer," for me, it was a no-brainer. It was one of the best things I've ever read.

When you do this job in this industry and you're lucky enough to get the chance to work as an actor, you feel very lucky. But I've worked for 17 years now as an actor and I don't think I've ever been part of a show that has been seen by so many people, but also has affected so many people. Richard's bravery in the telling of episode four has genuinely changed people's lives.

There are so many people who get in touch with both of us and talk about how his bravery and his story made them feel seen for the first time. And even the website of We Are Survivors has seen something like a 200% increase in email referrals and people getting in touch with them. They've cited "Baby Reindeer" as the main reason for that and I could not be prouder to be part of a show that is making such a difference in the world. And it's all down to him, really. So yeah, very proud.

Photo courtesy of Janet Susan R. Nepales

Richard: I think just a place to go and speak. Just a place to go and not be judged. There is silence and shame around these kinds of things. And the first step is breaking the silence, being in a situation where you can speak in a protected, confidential manner, where you can say stuff without judgment. And that's always the first step, is just being able to speak about it in a comfortable environment.

After I went through everything I went through, it was about two years before I ever spoke to someone. It was a friend first, and then it might be my mum. But it was those two years when the pressure was intolerable, I really came close... and the pressure was terrible. But every time I spoke to someone, I felt like I was lightening the load. I felt less judged, and people understood, and all these kinds of things. And a lot of the time I spent convincing myself that I should just get over it. But then everyone I told was quite taken aback. And in a lot of ways that validated the weight and the might of what I'd been through. So yeah, it's just being in an environment where you can talk safely and freely.

Jessica, have you found a good coaching process to take care of mental health? This is something we're now discussing a lot, how to self-care.

Jessica: Yeah, I try and surround myself with my family and friends as much as I can, and be open and honest, and speak to them as much as possible. I've been seeing a therapist now for over four years, and I use her as somebody who's completely changed my life, being able to talk about things with somebody, it feels safe, taken care of, and also protected, I think it's a really important thing in this day and age, self-care is really important. I think my parents' generation, like Richard was saying, they don't do that. I remember I had an office job about eight years ago that I did alongside acting, as a lot of actors do, and I needed to leave early because I had a therapy session. And I said to the lady in the office, "I've got to leave early for therapy."  And she went, "Oh." And I said, "Oh, have you ever seen a therapist?" She was like, "Um, no, thank you. I don't need to see a therapist." So, I was like, "Oh, it's okay to."  So, there is still a stigma. I was like, "I think it's brilliant when you're learning more and more about yourself."

So yeah, I've got a therapist, and I've also got a close network of friends and family that I would turn to. Especially after doing a project like "Baby Reindeer," it's important when you're winding down and trying to process everything, you can fall back on friends and family as much as possible.

Richard, how did you handle the mental stress from all the stalking?

Richard: You know, there were times when I didn't, to be honest. It reached intolerable pitches at various stages. It was really difficult. A problem I sometimes make when I'm in really stressful times is I busy myself in order to distract myself from a lot of the things going on and it can be quite a counterproductive way of going about things. throw myself into work and I work 24-7 or I'll take up a hobby and obsessively do it for ages. But when you're going through times with stuff like, this was a very unique situation and very, very stressful, but it's just to make sure you take time for yourself and that self-preservation thing. Time to look after yourself a little bit and designate time to sitting, being, and doing something you enjoy that feels quite healing. Taking a beat when those moments happen and making sure you learn how to censor yourself as best you can.

Jessica, in your earlier years as an actress, how did you handle mental stress due to rejection?

Jessica: Sometimes I go back to my old drama school and talk to the third years there as they're getting ready to graduate and they're all so eager and keen to get an agent straight away and start work straight away. But often I say, if you look at actors you admire in the industry, quite often they took a good few years before they started getting regular work. So, the biggest test for being an actor is getting used to waiting. There's a little joke there because waiting on tables as well as waiting for the next job. But I think it's really important to live your life as well. Not to be too cheesy but acting is about storytelling and playing characters that have gone through life experiences. And so, I try and say to those kids getting ready to graduate, live your life as well. Try and travel and fall in love and read and go to the theatre. And that's a big thing that I learned slowly but surely as I was waiting.

I've been in the industry now for 17 years to try and not just wait for the next job but to try and live your life as well. Because then you'll be able to put as much of that life into the parts you play as possible. So, you're not holding on and on pause for the next thing that comes along.

Richard, you've talked a lot about your struggles with mental health in the past. If you could step back in time and give some advice to your younger self when you were at the height of issues, what would you give and what would you say to others today?

Richard: Yeah, it's a good question. I think it's easier said than done, but it's okay to feel bad. Sometimes what I've found with certain bouts of severe mental health problems is the fact that I'm constantly thinking I shouldn't feel this way. How do I get through this emotion? And the fight almost adds to the pain almost in a way. So, I would say a lot of it is accepting that all pain is temporary. I do believe I've never been stuck in a permanent state of mental distress. It's lasted for a long time, months and months, but there's always been bursts of relief. My advice is to let the feelings in.

Remember, it's okay to feel that way and with time, feelings do pass. It takes a lot of time, they do. What I'm trying to say in a sort of bracketed way is to go easier on yourself. It's so much easier said than done. But I feel sometimes in my life I'm very hard on myself in a way that I wouldn't be with other people. It's almost like sometimes you don't treat yourself as you would other people. I'd never judge anyone else for things. It's in the show, but I've struggled with sexuality in my life and given myself a hard time for that growing up in a Scottish town and just had these latent feelings of shame. But if somebody ever came to me and said, I'm struggling with my sexuality, I wouldn't bat an eyelid. But when it came to me, I found that I was very, very judgmental of myself. And I sometimes think if you envisioned you coming to yourself, but they were someone else, what would you say to them? And if you sit yourself down on your knee and say to yourself, I find that it can help.

Jessica, you touched on it a bit maybe, but you've learned a lot about mental health in the last couple of years. What do you use in your everyday life that you didn't necessarily before? Something to help your own mental health?

Jessica: Yeah, I once went to a seminar and someone went, "Nothing beats a good bath." And actually, I think that's kind of true, a nice little bath, a bit of meditation, some candles. No, but a real test was when we were filming "Baby Reindeer" because it was quite an intense process and often coming back and having a bit of alone time and time to just think about things. There are loads of themes in the show that are very close to my heart. Themes about trauma, sexuality, and also loneliness are touched upon with the character of Martha, and actually with all of the characters. So, watching art that explores that as well is interesting, and trying to see films and things that make you feel more seen and less alone can be life changing. So, I turn to that or books or escapism in film and TV as well as feeling seen and connected to something.

Richard, I think you're incredibly brave. I know you've talked about it before, but to put your life out there in a show that ended up becoming this worldwide phenomenon. I don't know if you could have imagined the popularity at the time you wrote it. Whether you would have done it or not. But can you talk about that mental health journey for you of coming out and talking about it in a way where there's nowhere you could go on earth pretty much where people didn't know the story and how you handled that?

Richard: Well, it can be quite daunting, and you can have some of your old mindset coming back, everyone knows, and you sometimes feel like you can't escape them at times. And sometimes we have good days and bad days, as people, when it comes to mental health stuff. And on some bad days. I'm like, 'Oh everyone's thinking about it, everyone's judging me.' And of course, the show was very innately singular, very weird story, very idiosyncratic. It's singular in its tone and vision in a way, and very British in a lot of ways, very UK. It's a strike of the cord with so many.

We were number one in Qatar and Lebanon. It's had 85 million accounts, and they judge it as 2.5 people per account. So, it's like about 200 million people have watched it. And so that's 200 million people and if I think about it too much, I'm like that's 250 million people judging me. But also, you get a lot of positive responses, a lot of people saying how much the show has helped them or encouraged them to speak to their family or their family to come to terms with certain things that happened within their family together. And so, it's been a whole load of stuff at once. But it's been hugely uplifting at times and also quite daunting. So, it was a big old journey for sure.

Photo courtesy of Janet Susan R. Nepales

Jessica: Yeah absolutely. Richard's writing was so incredible in the creation of the character of Martha. She was so layered and complex that I immediately felt compassion towards her. I never viewed the character as bad or as a villain. I thought she was quite sweet, vulnerable, and damaged just like all the characters in the show are really. But it was a real testing time, especially those scenes where towards the end of the show she's waiting outside at the bus stop or the scene where Donny takes Martha back to her flat. That really moved me because it was clear she wasn't really looking after herself as well as she could have and that got me, I couldn't shake those days after when I went home from work. It stayed with me the whole time of the filming. She is a character but also the story that Richard's telling has changed my life and impacted me in so many ways. It's changed how I view a lot of things. Absolutely.

Richard, putting your story out, do you have any regrets, or would you do it again if you had to relive it?

Richard: Oh, certainly I wouldn't take anything back 100% because it's had such a positive impact on the world. I don't want to rattle off statistics but We Are Survivors themselves have had 200% more referrals to the website, 80% actual official referrals and 53% have cited "Baby Reindeer" as the reason why they sought help, and then 40% of stalking charities in the UK have improved and have increased in their referral rate as well. So, I can't take any of that back because it's helping people so much. The fact that the show is number one in countries where I probably wouldn't be allowed to go to. It is breaking down boundaries in that respect. So, any daunting overwhelming feelings that I feel or stress that I feel from certain elements of it I can put to one side for the greater good I suppose.

Jessica, your mood swings as a character were riveting. How easily accessible was that and were there aspects of this woman that you had admiration for?

Jessica: Yeah, well like I said earlier, Richard's script was so incredible. I just had to do what was on the page, really, and listen to him, and be in the moment. Everything made sense from the backstory work that I did on the character myself, in terms of her mood swings or any kind of changes in dynamic just because it was so linked to her love for Donny. So, if ever that felt in jeopardy, that's why she would fly it off the handle. So, it was quite easy to access because of Richard's incredible script. And the second part of the question was what, sorry?

Were there aspects of this woman that you had admiration for?

Jessica: Yeah well, I mean her persistence. (laughter) I used to enjoy imagining her going home and daydreaming about the next time they met and how that would go. The beauty of Richard's writing and how he wrote Donny's response to some of those moments was even better than she imagined. You know if he bantered back with her, she was just in heaven. So, I suppose I would admire the daydreaminess of it all and that almost fictional love story she had going on, aside from the reality of it all.

Richard, as you were writing about this episode in your life what kind of therapy did you prove? And did it prove to you how cathartic it was?

Richard: I still think "Baby Reindeer" is going on in a little way because I wrote it, and it went out into the world and now it's dealing with the whirlpool of things that have happened in its aftermath; The global response and adjusting to fame. I feel like the question of catharsis, healing, and all that stuff might come when everything dies down a bit and I have some time to reflect. Right now, I'm a little bit in it all still. But yeah, I obviously wouldn't change anything either.

This question is for Richard and Jessica. Is there anything you wish you had known about mental health or self-care?

Jessica: I think maybe I answered it earlier in terms of making time. What Richard was saying was interesting; try not to busy yourself too much and sit in it as much as you can and if you need help ask for it even though it's very hard to do. There are resources out there, so try and use those as much as you can. Especially after the pandemic, loneliness is a really big thing that's happening in the world and people are finding themselves more and more alone so I suppose it would just be to try and find places like We Are Survivors to ask for help and hopefully people are there who are willing to give it.

Richard: Speaking from the UK point of view, there are so many places you can go to get help. I think sometimes when you go through mental health crises, big traumas and problems in your life one of the feelings is huge isolation. I'm the only one who's going through these things everyone else is living their life and I'm struggling in this kind of bubble of self-pain and all this stuff but there are loads of places you can go to feel heard and be accepted and know that you're not the only one going through these things which does wonders just knowing that there are other people going through similar things and looking for similar things and yeah just knowing that there's a lot of good stuff out there if you look for it. Thank you.

This is for both of you, finding out what Jessica said about there being a 200% increase in complaints reported to the We Are Survivors, so can you talk about how probably you were surprised at the number of men who have been victims of abuse or rape? Any striking things you heard from people since this series came out?

Richard: Yeah, absolutely, there is a surprising thing when it comes to men. From a young age... speaking from my personal experience, I don't want to speak for the world or anything like that, but it was like when you grew up the prince rescues the princess, which was drilled into us at a young age. Climbs the beanstalk and topples the giant.

From a young age, there is this pressure put on men to be brave and strong. And that leads to a silence around a lot of the traumas that people go through. And when it comes to a sense of sexual abuse and stuff, I think that a lot of men, and the reason why so few men come forward to report it and so many few people come forward to even discuss it and speak about it is that they find it a dent on their masculinity. After all, fundamentally what they feel is a disempowering thing.

I think you really do survive sexual abuse. Do you see what I mean? and that's why the wording of We Are Survivors is so strong because you really do survive it. Surviving it is a hugely brave and strong thing to do, but a lot of men see it as a dent in their masculinity or something to be ashamed of. And then I suppose because the show comes out and there's someone there who's been very honest about this kind of stuff, what I like to think the show has done and the reason so many men are coming forward is it's given them permission to feel that way and to not feel as ashamed of it and to ultimately seek help and that's one of the aspects of the show that I'm most proud of. What it does, hopefully for survivors everywhere, but male survivors in particular, is the idea that you're not alone.

Jessica: Yeah, Richard said it perfectly. The only thing I would add is that as a colleague and as a friend of his, it was incredible to watch the process of him writing and filming the show. I think episode 4, I've not seen anything like it on television before and I don't think we will again, really. It's his bravery and sacrifice as a creator, as an artist, and as an actor. Putting that on-screen and being brave enough to do that, that's made so many people feel seen and not alone anymore. I think that's so special and so important.