What's wrong with the opposition? Here's activist Edna Aquino's take

Drawing on her five decades as advocate and organizer, Edna Aquino talks about the Marcos comeback, the release of Leila de Lima, and what ails current social movements and human rights education.

She and Howie discuss how a traditional respect for women won't stop many from voting for a misogynist. The former campaigner for Amnesty International assesses the prospects of justice for Filipino victims through the International Criminal Court.

HOWIE: Magandang araw, podmates. Howie Severino muli na bukod sa nagpapaalala na nakakatalino ang mahabang attention span, ay nagpapasalamat din sa kauna-unahang award ng Howie Severino Podcast na iginawad ng Catholic Mass Media Awards for Best Education Program. So maraming salamat po para sa parangal na ito.

Ang guest natin ngayon ay may makulay na buhay at mahabang career sa pagiging aktibista, human rights campaigner mula nu'ng nasa kolehiyo pa siya noong dekada 60, hanggang ngayon na nagtatanggol siya ng mga karapatan ng mga senior citizen. Edna Aquino, dating Amnesty International campaigner sa London, ngayon, influencer sa iba't ibang issue ng human rights. Magandang araw sa iyo, Edna Aquino.

EDNA: Hello, Howie, magandang hapon sa lahat at ikinagagalak ko na maging panauhin mo rito sa iyong podcast. Isa akong tagahanga.

HOWIE: Salamat, salamat, Edna. The feeling is mutual. Pero I want to open, Edna, with some good news. Kasi former senator Leila de Lima was in jail for seven years and has been recently released. And she was our highest profile political prisoner in modern times.

What does it say about our political environment today? Anong reaction niyo nu'ng pinalaya si former Senator de Lima?

EDNA: Well, first of all, 'yung pitong taon niya, almost 7 years ng pagkakulong is a gross injustice, especially based on just trumped-up charges. Kaya sa tingin ko... 'yung bagamat wini-welcome natin 'yung pagpapalaya kay Senator Leila, I think hindi roon nagtatapos dapat ang pagpupursige ng hustisya.

Kasi siguro 'yung ginawa sa kay Senator Leila ang isa sa pinakamaruming paggamit ng justice system ng gobyerno. Kung maalaala n'yo, katakot-takot na pambabastos sa kaniyang pagkatao ang ginawa. Hindi lang ng presidente. Alam naman natin. Si President Duterte nu'ng panahon ng kaniyang administrasyon ay nangunguna sa pambabastos sa mga kababaihan. Pero mismo 'yung Kongreso, pinagtulung-tulungan siya.

At Senado rin, mga colleague niya sa Senate na dapat ay naging man lang nagpakita ng civility sa kanilang kapuwa senador. So sa akin, mahabang paglalakbay pa itong nangyari kay Senator Leila. As I said, wini-welcome natin kasi dapat lang talaga na mapalaya siya. Pero I really hope that Senator Leila would pursue her case against the government and really put on record that what they did to her should not happen to anyone.

Kasi magse-set na 'yan ng precedent kahit na sabihin pa na pinalaya siya. Remember na ang basis ng pagpapalaya sa kaniya is still very much ...relatively tenuous, 'no? Hindi pa tapos, hindi pa talaga fully sinara 'yung mga kaso sa kaniya, nag-retract 'yung mga witness. Pero wala pang final verdict na siya ay inosente sa mga ginawang trumped-up charge sa kaniya.

HOWIE: Yeah, tama kayo. I mean, I should have prefaced my statement by saying, she's out on bail pa lang. Wala pa talagang final decision 'yung kaso. Yeah. In fact, theoretically, puwede pa siyang ibalik sa kulungan?

EDNA: Yes. At natutuwa ako na kahit na ganu'n ang ginawa sa kaniya, kung makikita niyo sa mga statement niya, talagang ano, although mas delicate ang kaniyang pagsasagot sa mga question ng media, makikita mo na nandoon 'yung determination niya na maituwid talaga 'yung ginawa sa kaniya.

Kung paano niya gagawin 'yan sa current political climate nga na kung saan, ginagawa rin siyang parang trophy ng gobyernong BBM para ipakita na may justice system sa Pilipinas na nagbibigay ng supposedly justness sa case na tulad ng kaniya.

HOWIE: Before we leave the topic of Senator de Lima, I want to know your thoughts about how the release of Leila de Lima on parole is helping fuel this narrative that Marcos Jr. is better and less autocratic than former President Duterte, more respectful of rule of law and more respectful of, you know, human rights.

You think Marcos Jr., President Marcos Jr. deserves any credit for anything?

EDNA: Well, dahil napakabulgar nu'ng pinanggilingan natin na administrasyon pagdating sa usapin ng civility, decency, 'no, 'yung pumalit sa kaniya, kahit papaano, mabango. Relatively mabango. Effective ang handling sa kaniya, maski pa naman nu'ng presidential campaign.

Ngayon, anong tingin ko sa kaniya? I think may mga sign na talagang hindi siya ganu'n ka-direktang nagbibigay ng order kung papaano ang handling, ang treatment ng mga kapulisan halimbawa sa mga oposisyon, 'no?

Very deliberate 'yun na hindi niya papel 'yan, papel na 'yan ng mga enforcer. Pero makikita mo, may mga unti-unti na mga report tungkol sa EJKs. Hindi naman talaga tumigil 'yung EJK na related sa droga. Tapos may balita nu'ng isang araw tungkol sa disappearances ng dalawang aktibista.

So, hindi natin nakikita. Kasi bakit? Posible na siguro baka 'yung mga kasamahan natin sa media ay hindi rin na masyadong nagpa-follow up na sa mga pangyayaring ganyan. Baka pati tayo rin nadadala roon sa ganu'ng klaseng image na pino-promote tungkol sa kaniya.

At ang preoccupation kasi natin ngayon, sa totoo lang din ay tungkol sa kagutuman, 'no, paghihirap din ng mga kababayan nating naghihikahos. Tapos 'yung usapin mismo ng climate change, napakalaking problema ng climate change. Kaliwa't kanan 'yung mga disaster na nangyayari sa probinsya.

Halimbawa 'yung recent lang na baha pala sa Samar, hindi man lang nakarating dito sa Maynila ang mga balita. Unless nakikita natin sa TV. So, maraming pangyayari sa iba't ibang bahagi ng bansa na hindi na natin masyadong binibigyan ng atensyon.

At diyan siguro ang hamon natin sa mga kasamahan sa media na baka may kailangan din tingnan kung bakit at ano ang papel nila in terms of pagpapakita ng mga mas malawak na pananaw tungkol sa tunay na pangyayari sa bansa. Effective talaga 'yung communication handling ng government ni BBM tungkol sa kaniyang image. I have to give him to that. Minsan ako nadadala rin, e.

HOWIE: Okay. Pero nabanggit mo nga 'yung campaign, 'no, 'yung presidential campaign. You did not, of course, support him. You supported his main opponent, si Leni Robredo, 'no? In fact, 'yung mga kalaban niya, 'yung mga nangangampanya laban kay BBM o Marcos Jr., 'yung iba pa sinasabi, he's an existential threat and parang it seemed to be like a life and death struggle noong panahon ng kampanya. So when he won, how did you feel?

EDNA: I was not surprised at all. Kasi matagal kong binantayan 'yung resurgence, pagbabalik ng mga Marcoses. Mula pa nu'ng unang tumatakbo sila sa local election, tapos sa Senate. Unti-unti napakahusay ng strategy nila for a comeback. So hindi ako talaga nagulat, apart from of course, stories of malalim ang bulsa nila for the election.

Pero mayroon din akong gustong ipunto rito na isa siguro din sa naging... isa rin siguro sa nakatulong kahit papaano sa kampanya ni BBM na nagpanalo sa kaniya na ang ilang bahagi ng oposisyon, 'yung narrative natin, namin, natigil na du'n sa Martial Law nu'ng tatay niya, na bagamat mahalaga, hindi siya tumutuhog du'n sa mga hindi namin ka-generation, sa mga batang generation.

Ano siya.. Imagined story siya ng repression ng Martial Law. Kaya kahit ano pang sabihin na ganito talaga nangyari sa amin nu'ng Martial Law, hindi siya tumatagos. And I think that is something na kailangan patuloy na pag-aralan kung papaano natin ikuwento 'yung nangyari nu'ng Martial Law and yet hindi tayo tumitigil sa narrative na 'yun.

Kasi nga masyado nang malayo sa imahinasyon ng sumunod ng mga henerasyon, mga mas nakababatang henerasyon. In fact, mismo sa mga ka-generation namin, malayo rin siya, e. Kasi kung hindi talaga sila direct ang na-involve sa political struggle ng panahon na 'yun, malayo rin, e. Parang kinakausap ko 'yung mga kapitbahay ko na mga senior din, hindi ano, e, hindi, tumitimo 'yung kuwento sa kanila about Martial Law. And that is something to reflect upon.

HOWIE: Yeah, you know, nagulat ako, 'no? Actually, totoo 'yung sinasabi mo, 'no? Pero siguro dahil ako'y nasa mga silo rin ng aking mga social circle na medyo woke, 'no. They're very conscious of what's going on in society, you know, the politics and the history ng ating bansa, 'no?

So, akala ko 'yung itong 'pag sinabing "Never Again" ng mga aktibista, akala ko that really had an impact kasi madalas naman may lumalabas sa media, e, tungkol sa kasaysayan natin sa nu'ng Martial Law, 'no.

May mga monumento tayo, may bantayog, 'no? There are movies that have been made, may mga libro naman na lumabas, may mga movement, may mga social media account and Facebook pages about all of this, 'no? And yet, sinasabi mo nga ngayon na parang it didn't really seep down, 'no?

And of course, we know that now kasi nga because of the comeback of the Marcoses, 'no? But from your international experience, other countries have gone through similar historical traumas. They've gone through experiences that they don't want to repeat again and haven't, and it hasn't been repeated.

You know, in Europe, Europe has gone through some terrible things. Holocaust is just one extreme example. So, what have other societies done that were more effective than what has happened in the Philippines?

Tayo may, sabi niyo nga, may collective trauma tayo or do you think this trauma didn't affect enough people?

EDNA: By coincidence, nanood ako ng Miss Universe contest last week. And, you know, the venue is El Salvador. Nu'ng panahon ko, we were campaigning against human rights violations in Salvador. When we were having our democratic space during the latter part na of Martial Law here in the Philippines.

Grim, napaka-grim ng pangyayari sa El Salvador nu'ng panahon na 'yun, 'no? Mas brutal ang... At gumamit pa ng mga kontras, 'no? Ang US government ng panahon na 'yun, nag-import pa ng mga mercenary para gumawa ng mga human rights violation. But look at El Salvador now, parang wala rin nangyaring kadiliman nu'ng panahon na 'yun.

So, I was thinking, parang may comparison yata 'yung nangyari sa El Salvador at saka sa Pilipinas. So, 'yun ang isang... Isa sigurong ano, puwede kong sabihin na hindi lang sa Pilipinas nangyayari 'yan, 'no? Sa maraming parte kung saan ka-generation ng Martial Law ng Philippines.

Nicaragua, halimbawa. Isa rin 'yan. Iniidolo namin noon si Ortega na namuno ng liberation movement sa Nicaragua and it turned out to... Later on, it turned out to be a dictator and even accused of violence against women, sa sarili niyang stepdaughter.

So, you know, ngayon, ano naman 'yung kabilang mukha? I think, I'm looking at the example of Chile kunwari. But why Chile? Kasi malawak talaga 'yung ginawa ni Pinochet at saka mas mahaba talaga 'yung repression period ni Pinochet sa Chile. At, and I have to give credits to the activists in Chile. Very enduring din sila talaga, 'no?

So, 'yan ang isang isa siguro nakikita kong ka-generation ng Pilipinas nu'ng panahon na yon. Those dark years of the 70s, 'no? When several countries were under similar condition of what you call then the low-intensity conflicts in Latin America. It was also done here in the Philippines. So, Chile would be something I can think of. And I think there are several factors kung bakit ganu'n. The magnitude of the problem, the resilience of the opposition of the movement, and they handled it well to the point that they were able to really successfully brought to power you know, progressive politicians, 'no?

So, 'yan ang isang nakikita kong example. Siguro ang reflection na dapat mangyari would be on the part of the opposition kasi alam naman natin ang nangyari sa opposition dito. We had many episodes of fragmentation, 'no? Maraming 'yung ideological differences.

And, you know, election after election, I would be one of those voices saying, "Mag-unite kayo, mag-unite tayo," and yet, parang it was landing on deaf ears. Ilang elections na 'yan na ang panawagan... Isa ako sa mga nanawagan na "Puwede ba umupo muna tayo at magkaisa tayo?" So, there was that little window nu'ng panahon ni Leni na kahit papaano nagsama-sama and yet, marami pa rin, malalim pa rin ang distrust sa isa't isa.

EDNA: So, I think, isa 'yan sa mga dapat pag-aralan nang mabuti 'yung sarili nating kilusan ng pagbabago rito sa Pilipinas, no? Wala akong mapanghawakan na puwede kong sabihing inspired ako at itataya ko ang pangalan ko. Kasi none of the political movements here right now really inspire me.

'Yun ang isang problema ko. And I think, hindi lang ako nag-iisa riyan. Maraming mga kasama nu'ng panahon ng Martial Law, panahon ni Marcos, opposition na they would rather not be identified with any political groupings because, you know, 'pag sumama ka, nale-label ka na kaagad na you embrace the full agenda of a particular force. Tapos, labeling na 'yan.

Tapos hindi ka na maka... wala ka ng espasyo to expand yourself, your connection. So, that's the problem of the movement here. Something to really think about. Kasi sa tingin ko, kulang pa ng reflection, e. Whichever political forces these are, kulang ng reflection, kulang ng malalim na pag-aaral kung ano naman 'yung mga weakness natin.

So, after halimbawa nu'ng campaign ni Leni, naghahanap ako ng pag-uusap na mas makasali sa pag-uusap. "Ano ba ang... Saan ba tayo nagkulang? Saan ba tayo nagkamali?" And, I have joined one or two conversations. Hindi, e. Hindi malalim ang pag-aaral. Ganu'n din ang nangyari nu'ng previous local election, 'yung senators na natalo lahat. Hindi malalim ang pag-aaral. Kaya 'yun ang isa sigurong masasabi ko na hamon. And also a source of disappointments on my part.

HOWIE: Yeah. So, well, on the one hand, kailangan maging accountable din 'yung mga nasa opposition for its own  weaknesses and failings. Pero may pananaw rin na a lot of these weaknesses is a result din of the red tagging na nabanggit mo rin, 'no? There are so many people who are afraid of being red tagged, 'no?

So, it's been very difficult to organize, to do this kind of reflection at least as a group, 'di ba? You know, kaunting kilos lang mare-red tag ka na and then, you'll be afraid for your family and so it's created this, you know, self-censorship, this chilling effect, etcetera. So, in a way, would you say that the red tagging, regardless of how wrong it is, has been effective?

EDNA: Well, first of all, Howie, 'yung red tagging naman, it's not a new phenomenon under Duterte. It's always been there. When I was arrested and eventually detained under Cory Aquino's administration, I was a case of having been red-tagged. So, sa akin, hindi bago 'yan, e.

And I think that the progressive movements are resilient enough that we could overcome these challenges such as red tagging. Ang problema... Sa tingin ko lang, ang problema is paano pinapaliwanag ang red tagging such that mabibigyan mo ng koneksyon 'yung repression na ganyan sa realidad ng ordinaryong tao sa kalye.

Kasi, halimbawa, bigyan kita ng example. Noong panahon ng pandemya, na-involve ako sa isang project on human rights, gumawa, na i-survey kung ano ang attitude ng mga tao tungkol sa human rights. At ang objective nito is para makagawa ng mga communication project that will bring human rights closer to home. Kasi nga everyone is affected by the pandemic.

So, it was very revealing to me that when the respondents were asked about what they think of human rights, almost unanimously, ang sagot na nakuha namin in these cuts across, different class backgrounds of respondents, human rights was framed by the respondents as something out there. It's a legal thing. It's something for the courts to address.

Malayo sa realidad nila ang human rights. Samantalang ang realidad nila sa gitna ng pandemic 'yun is a question of human rights already. Inequitable distribution ng ayuda noong panahon ng pandemya. Hindi nila nakikita na human rights 'yun. Hindi nila nakikita 'yun na responsibility 'yun ng government or maski responsibilidad nila sa kapuwa, sa isa't isa.

Tinanong namin sila tungkol sa question anong tingin nila sa mga nagpoprotesta kasi patuloy naman 'yung pagpoprotesta ng ilang progressive forces noong panahon ng pandemya. Almost unanimously, ang sagot, "Hindi sila nakakatulong, nanggugulo sila."

So, sa akin as an activist, it was very humbling kasi all these decades that I've been involved in human rights activism, I thought, baka nakaano na kami, nagkaroon na tayo ng dent doon sa consciousness ng mga tao pero hindi. Ganu'n ang pananaw nila. So, I was humbled.

But at the same time, it really posed deeper questions in me. Ano ang kulang sa human rights activism at hindi natin naaabot ang mga ganu'ng klaseng pananaw ng ordinaryong tao sa mga komunidad. Pero siyempre limited 'yung study namin. Hindi mo naman puwedeng sabihin na ganu'n 'yung kalakhan.

Pero at the same time, dahil random 'yung pagpili namin ng mga respondent, parang may weight naman 'yung resulta nu'ng aming survey, 'yung aming focus group discussion na ginawa.

Anong ibig sabihin nu'n? Ang sa punto kanina na binabanggit natin na ano 'yung kailangan na repleksyon ng oposisyon, mga kilusang pagbabago. I think we really have to study, look deeper into how we communicate, how we relate with ordinary people on the streets.

Talagang ang layo natin. Ang layo pa natin. And I've heard of unfortunate stories na nu'ng panahon nu'ng eleksyon, nag-house to house 'yung ating mga kaibigan from gated communities pupunta sa mga depressed communities at hindi nila alam papaano nila iha-handle 'yung interaction nila sa mga tao, sa mga depressed communities.

Magdadala ng ayuda. Pero 'yung question there is that, hindi naka-breakthrough doon sa ano, e, sa invisible wall between them and the people in those communities. Kasi nga 'yung class, 'no? Hindi sila handa na pumunta sa mga depressed community at ang mga nasa depressed community, hindi handa na pupuntahan sila ng mga kaibigan nating burgis at makikipag-kaisa sa kanila.

So 'yung journey na 'yan, mahabang paglalakbay 'yan na kailangan 'yung mismong gustong makaabot sa mga kababayan natin na nasa mga komunidad na 'yan ay kailangan din tingnan ang sarili bago sila pumunta sa mga community na 'yun at mag-outreach. Hindi 'yan madaling gawin.

Pero 'pag uumpisahan mo 'yan is maging, magkaroon ka ng self-awareness na mayroon kang power relationship na kailangan tawirin para maabot mo sila. At hanggang hindi ka aware na mayroon kang ganu'ng klaseng power dynamics or power relationship sa kanila, e, you know, hindi ka maka-breakthrough sa kanila at hindi ka makakatulong sa pagbabago ng kanilang pananaw. So 'yun ang aking reflection.

HOWIE: Yes. Well, totoo nga 'yan. Obviously, there's that barrier, 'no? Pero on the other side of it, 'yung reflection ko naman noong mga panahon na 'yun, kasi kahit 'yung mga ibang miyembro ng pamilya ko, ganu'n din ang ginagawa, 'no? Pati 'yung mga kaibigan din ng anak ko, lumalabas din sa community nila para mangampanya sa mga ibang community, 'no?

Ako ang feeling ko nu'n, "Wow! Ah, parang ngayon ko lang nakita 'to na may... 'Yun nga kahit galing sa gated community, lumalabas sila roon, nakikipag-house to house. I mean, nandu'n 'yung intention.

I mean, basically you're saying, you know, baka kulang pa sa method or approach, 'no? Pero 'yung motivation to go out and interact with people and try to convince them about something good, ... especially younger people, that was something new, 'no? Parang 'yun ang unang political experience nila. And maybe it's the first time na nagkaroon sila ng diskusyon, ng seryosong diskusyon ng mga tao na hindi nila katulad.

EDNA: Totoo 'yan. Pero ang question diyan, Howie, nagawa na 'yan, nabigyan natin ng... nabigyan natin ng espasyo na mangyari 'yung ganu'ng klaseng pagkakataon. But how do you sustain that? 'Yun ang ano, 'yun ang kulang, e. Kasi wala pang movement na sumasalo sa kanila.

Kasi 'pag bumalik na sila, pagkatapos na ng election, magkaniya-kaniya ng kung saang grupo ka napasama, di 'yun ang mag-aalaga, 'yun ang magsu-sustain ng karanasan mo na napakaganda, 'no? Pero wala 'yung solidong movement, e. 'Yun ang kulang, e, na magdadala niyan para magiging isang tunay na kilusan siya ng pagbabago.

HOWIE: And parang nag-dissipate, nag-dissipate 'yun 'yung energy. I mean, where do you go? Kunwari 'yung mga bagong politicized, 'yung mga kabataan na na-politicized nu'ng mga kampanya na 'yun, where do they go now if they want to continue their involvement?

I want to ask you now about the International Criminal Court. I mean, you worked for a long time for Amnesty International in London, which is one of the longest, one of the oldest international human rights groups. And you've been quite skeptical about the ICC's potential for delivering justice to the Philippines.

Kasi katatapos lang ng era kung saan ay, you know, the government advocated, you know, actually advocated killing the people. And it happened, 'no? That was a campaign promise that was kept by former President Duterte. And now, many people are crying for justice. At inaasahan 'yung ICC para magkaroon ng katarungan. At anong pananaw n'yo riyan? Maaasahan ba natin 'yung International Criminal Court para magbigay ng katarungan sa mga naging biktima sa Pilipinas?

EDNA: I don't know kung skeptical ang mag-describe ko sa pananaw ko. Siguro I'm just being realistic. Kasi tiningnan ko 'yung mga iba't-ibang case na nakarating na sa ICC. At inabot talaga ng maraming taon 'yan. So, isa 'yan siguro sa realidad ko.

Pangalawang realidad ko siguro 'yung... hindi siguro. But pangalawang realidad ko 'yung the fact na, you have countries like the US and China, two big superpowers who have not signed up to the ICC, the Rome Statute of the ICC.

So, which means that may problema sa credibility, sa kakayanan ng ICC na talagang mapursige ito. Pangatlo, 'yung usapin din ng the current global political context. I am very, I'm very disturbed by what is happening in the Israel-Palestine in so far as its impact on the future of human rights, sa totoo lang.

Kasi 'yung ano, 'yung Israel and Palestine, ilang beses na 'yan ginawa ng... nagkaroon ng attempt na dalhin din 'yan sa ICC. At hindi 'yan makabuwelo ang mga organization na gustong dalhin 'yan sa ICC kasi ang lakas-lakas ng lobby in favor of Israel. And so far as its illegal occupation of Palestine.

So, ibig sabihin, may politics na nagaganap kung bakit may pagka-selective 'yung mga case na kayang pumasok sa ICC. Hindi natin maiaalis 'yan. May politics diyan. Pero more than 'yung ICC, ako disturbed ako sa nangyayari ngayon sa Israel-Palestine. Kasi lahat na yata ng prinsipyo sa libro ng human rights ay naba-violate. At lahat ng bansa na inaasahan mo dahil sila 'yung mga namuno nu'ng binuo 'yung Universal Declaration of Human Rights after World War II ay sila ngayon ang humaharang para dalhin ang Israel sa korte.

At man lang... Itigil man lang 'yung nangyayari ngayon sa Gaza. Kaya ang bigat-bigat na implication niyan sa credibility ng human rights system. Kasi sila 'yung mga bansa na ito, US, the UK, European Union. Ito 'yung mga bansa na nagtutulak ng accountability ng mga bansa tulad ng panahon, tulad ng Pilipinas nu'ng panahon ni Duterte.

Ito 'yung mga bansa na nagtutulak supposedly for accountability. And yet, sila ngayon 'yung nasa front line na kailangan managot sa nangyayari sa Gaza. So, ang bigat ng repercussion niyan sa future ng human rights. 'Yung mga image tulad ng... ginawa sa mga Jew nu'ng Holocaust, mabigat 'yan. 'Yung ibig sabihin niyan sa ginagawa ng Israel ngayon sa Gaza. So, and the UDHR, if you remember was framed because of what happened during the Holocaust.

HOWIE: Okay, tama ka, 'no? Israel is quite influential lalo na, you know, US is a major ally of Israel. So, that could be one reason why Israel is able to do these things with, in the past at least, with impunity. But, frankly, I mean, I've never seen this kind of public outcry against Israel in my life. Of course, deserving naman dahil sa ginagawa nila sa Gaza.

But, itong outpouring of support for Palestine and against Israel worldwide, parang historic, 'no? But going back to the Philippines and the ICC. I'm not sure if I see the parallel, 'no? So, 'yung sinasabi mo na, you know, it's hard to make Israel accountable because, you know, because it's backed by the US, which is very influential in making any country accountable, 'no?

So, do you think ganu'n din ba 'yung influence ng Pilipinas para hindi maging accountable si Duterte sa ICC, hindi habulin ng ICC si dati Pangulong Duterte?

EDNA: No. Pero the---

HOWIE: I mean, what would stop the ICC from pursuing justice in the Philippines?

EDNA: It's the political context because the US now has found a very good ally out of the BBM government. So, sa tingin ko, ang onus ngayon will be on the BBM government whether it will pursue, it will open the Philippines for investigation by the ICC prosecutor.

Ngayon, pero the signal that's happening globally, sa global context, will play an important factor in terms of hanggang saan itutulak ng mga government na ito na maka-influence sila sa BBM government to open itself up.

And I think that diyan naglalaro ngayon 'yung domestic politics, 'yung political dynamics ngayon between BBM and the Dutertes, at saka 'yung usapin ng US and to a certain extent, 'yung US-China conflict. It's very complex. Hindi mo makitaan immediately ng evidence 'yan na may influence 'yan sa ICC. Pero it is playing a role.

So, titingnan mo 'yan ang signal kung hanggang saan itutulak ni BBM ang pressure sa kaniya regarding opening the country to investigation of Dutertes' crimes against humanity.

HOWIE: Okay. Well, speaking of domestic politics and what the role of the Marcos government now is pagdating doon sa kaso sa ICC. Si Sen. Imee Marcos has been saying na the release of de Lima from prison proves that the Philippine judicial system is working and there's no need for the ICC.

The International Criminal Court does not need to meddle anymore now with our affairs in the Philippines dahil nga dapat pumasok ang ICC 'pag nagpe-fail 'yung state in delivering justice for its own people. But kayo, anong pananaw niyo? Does the release of de Lima prove anything? Does it help the Philippine government's case when it argues that there's no need for ICC? Dahil we have rule of law here, we have justice in the Philippines.

EDNA: Ako ang tingin ko riyan, pogi points lang 'yan. 'Yan ang first level of communication nila na 'yan ang palalabasin nila, palalabasin nila that de Lima is a trophy for the BBM government in terms of the justice system is working. At parang Gandhi nila 'yan para makapuntos sila, para ma-placate nila 'yung threat sa mga Duterte na BBM is already changing its mind about the ICC.

First level of communication 'yan, e. Ang malalim na titignan diyan kung hanggang saan magpe-pressure... hanggang saan susuporta ang US kay BBM para itulak ang ICC. 'Yan ang laro diyan. At isang point of leveraging diyan would be China. So 'yan ang laro diyan, e. But US can play, can still play an influential role in terms of delaying or hastening the ICC process in the Philippines. That's how I look at it. Hindi mahihiwalay sa ICC ang global political dynamics na 'yan.

HOWIE: Okay. Nabanggit ko nu'ng umpisa. You worked for a long time with Amnesty International. What is that? Ano ba 'yung Amnesty International?

EDNA: So Amnesty International is an international human rights organization that was established in the early, in the 1960s nu'ng panahon ng repression sa Portugal. So a group of, a group of British came together and started their letter writing to the dictatorship then in Portugal for the release of the so-called, what we know as prisoners of conscience.

Anyway, it is a membership-based organization unlike other international human rights organizations like Human Rights Watch, for instance. It is a straightforward international NGO. Amnesty International is a hybrid of being a movement because it has members in more than 100 countries. But at the same time, it is an NGO kasi it has an international secretariat with hundreds of staff from different parts of the world coming together in doing the research, doing their global campaigning, strategizing, etcetera, etcetera. When I got my post in 1990, I was one of the two Filipinos in a staff of more than 400.

HOWIE: Sa main headquarters 'to, sa London?

EDNA: Sa main headquarters sa London.

HOWIE: Or Or worldwide? In London?

EDNA: In London, at the headquarters. Dalawa lang kaming Pilipino noon. And naabutan ko ang Amnesty which is predominantly talagang white, European or British. Kakaunti lang kami na galing from the third world or the south. And I came at a very opportune time kasi 'yun 'yung panahon na nape-pressure na 'yung Amnesty International to be more diverse, to be more grounded in those countries where it has done very well in terms of research, researching and campaigning for human rights violation.

So, may pressures sa Amnesty na kailangan mas maging grounded siya sa mga bansa kung saan gumagawa siya ng kaniyang investigation. Para Amnesty will really truly become a global movement. So nangyari. Tinawag ko siya na opportune, opportunity kasi at just... I came at the right time.

And so, I was one of those very vocal inside the organization that really pushed for diversity, multiculturalism, etcetera, etcetera. Issues that were so unknown to an organization that is predominantly European-centered, if you like. And most of its funding came from European Union chapters and then, US and Canada. So, 'yun.

So, nakaroon kami, ako and several other coming from the south became an important voice inside the organization. And I think that we made an impact in terms of expanding the perspective of the organization. So for a longest time and even until now, Amnesty International probably is emblematic of the criticisms about human rights as being solely focused on civil political rights and not looking at socio-economic rights. Malaking debate 'yan sa loob ng global human rights movement including within Amnesty.

So, may mga adjustment siyang ginawa especially nu'ng nagkaroon ng malaking challenge sa mga Asian country tulad ng Singapore, Malaysia, China na hindi na adequate na civil political rights lang ang binibigyan ng emphasis. 'Pag sinabing universality, indivisibility of rights, it should be looking at socio-economic rights.

And I think, may validity, may strength 'yung criticism na 'yun sa human rights. And I really believe na 'yun 'yung sinasabi ko sa 'yo na may critique ako sa human rights kasi nga, tingin ko, talaga namang for a longest time, for many decades, ang primacy ng civil political rights naka-contribute din sa 'pagna-narrow down ng understanding ng publiko on what is actually human rights.

'Yun 'yung sinasabi ko siya kanina na nu'ng tinatanong namin 'yung mga tao about human rights noong panahon ng pandemya, ang tingin nila, legal 'yan, korte 'yan. Hindi nila nakikita na human rights ay tungkol din sa sikmura kasi nga ganu'n ang naging paradigm for a longest time.

And I have to admit na dapat talaga pakinggan nang mabuti ang mga sinasabi ng mga nagki-critique na dapat bigyan din ng equal attention ang socio-economic rights. At bakit hindi? Kasi the United Nations was designed such that when it comes to socio-economic rights, walang malinaw ng mechanism to make governments accountable for on socio-economic rights violations. Unlike civil political rights. 'Yun ang problema e. Fundamental problem 'yan ng international human rights system natin.

HOWIE: Gusto ko lang idagdag kasi for a lot of people, baka ngayon lang nila narinig na ipaliwanag 'yung kung ano 'yung Amnesty International. I just wanna add na kasi maraming human rights organizations sa mundo. But Amnesty International is probably the most prominent and influential, nanalo ito ng Nobel Prize noong 1977.

And ikaw, bilang isang... sabi mo nga, it was a very white organization nu'ng pumasok ka. You're a person of color and you're a woman and you were advocating more inclusivity and diversity within this large and influential human rights organization.

One of your causes was not just economic rights, socio-economic rights, but gender rights, women's rights, especially, you know, this campaign against violence against women. I wanna ask you about this. Kasi you helped put this on the international agenda and it gained you some prominence and gave you influence as well.

Pero 'yung Pilipinas kasi, this is something I've always wondered about. We've always been kind of... we've always been... Our society at least has been constantly praised or frequently praised for women's rights, gender equality. And I'm sure you see a lot of contradictions here. Kasi, like, for example, I looked it up before this interview. In the latest Global Gender Gap Index Report ng World Economic Forum, the Philippines, well, it has long been deemed the most gender equal country in Asia. I mean, Asia is like the biggest continent in the world.

So we're the most gender-equal country in the biggest continent in the world. And we're ranked now 16th. We're actually improving from last year. We were 19th. We're now 16th.

But at the same time, you know, you and I and many other Filipinos still see so much abuse of women, 'di ba? And, okay, and in particular, and in particular, in more recent years kasi you were also involved in this online movement na may hashtag na #BabaeAko. Which was... I also looked this up. And this, itong #BabaeAko campaign against Duterte in particular, kasi this started when, you know, when the presidential candidate Duterte, in 2015, 2016, who was saying these misogynistic things and making jokes about rape, you know.

A lot of this is still fresh to many people. Pero itong inyong... So kayo nag-umpisa kayo along with other people, itong #BabaeAko campaign online nagiging viral, na may hashtag. And nabilang pala ito nu'ng  taong 2018, as among Time Magazine's most influential on the internet.

So #BabaeAko was lauded as among the most influential in the world by Time Magazine, which, you know, I mean. So, ang tanong ko, you know, with this kind of impact, and with our society being known as being, you know, respectful to women, mataas tayo sa mga ranking ng gender equality, nanalo pa rin 'yung katulad ni Duterte, whom your movement thoroughly documented lahat ng mga sinabi niya against women publicly, which were denounced worldwide, shocked a lot of people, and yet, he won the election, and he retained his popularity despite not really toning down his, you know, the sexist language.

He's still making jokes. You know, kissing strange, you know, OFW women on the lips, 'di ba? 'Yung mga ganu'ng klaseng notoriety. And yet, he retained his popularity throughout his presidency. Parang, I mean, how can that happen? Supposedly, we have this high respect for women traditionally.

It's not because of institutions lang or because of laws but because of our culture. Dati pa, pre-colonial pa 'yan, 'di ba? We were more gender equal or more gender-inclusive than the colonizers, 'di ba? And yet, you know, may ganito tayong pulitika. How can you explain this, Edna?

EDNA: Ako, while I take pride in what we've done when #BabaeAko was still up and running. At the same time, ako personally, I was problematizing that, you know, we're only good in social media. And that unless, we transform our social media presence into a real movement, it will be a short-term success, if you like. Kasi social media, short-term memory 'yan, e. Hindi naman 'yan... Sa ngayon popular ka, bukas hindi na. Ganu'ng klase.

You rely on algorithms to sustain yourself. And you have to keep on feeding into that, world of hindi naman talaga, na masyadong mabilis at hindi naman talaga nakakaroon ng solid na impact sa buhay ng tao. Alisin mo 'yung social media, kahit na hindi nangyari 'yung #BabaeAko at wala kaming ginawa na ganoon sa social media, ang realidad pa rin is that we are still essentially, basically a country  machismo.

May malakas pa rin ng machismo patriarchy sa Pilipinas. Tapos 'yung usapin ng pagbabago sa relasyon, ano 'yan, e, mahabang proseso 'yan na kailangan may pagbabagong kailangan mangyari sa pag-iisip, pananaw. Hindi lang ng kalalakihan, kundi ng mga kababaihan mismo.

I must say, kung ico-compare ko siya nu'ng panahon namin nu'ng ako ay bata-bata pa at ngayon, puwede ko... in fairness naman, marami nang nagbago sa attitude lalo na ng mga kabataan sa usapin ng kanilang karapatan bilang babae. Wala kami nu'ng, 'yung nakikita ko ngayon ng mga assertion ng mga kabataang babae sa kanilang karapatan, control over their bodies, and even their identities or gender identities, wala yan nu'ng panahon namin. So, ibig sabihin, may progression naman.

Pero ang problema rito, nagka-cascade ba 'yan sa mga komunidad na kailangan talaga nating bigyan ng pansin? Kasi karamihan ng mga incident of gender-based violence sa ngayon ay nangyayari sa mga poor and depressed communities. Hindi na roon sa... Hindi na masyado roon sa mga educated sector ng lipunan.

So, ibig sabihin, mayroon talaga ang gap pa rin. Malakas pa rin 'yung gap kaya nangyayari 'yung ganu'ng mga klaseng cases. Marami pa rin. And then, of course, there is the question of power again sa mga komunidad. Kung sino 'yung may access sa justice, kung sino 'yung marunong magdepensa ng sarili nila, sa sariling karapatan, 'yun ang may chances na makapanalo.

Pero kung wala kang ganu'ng klase, ang mas preoccupation mo ay saan ka kukuha ng susunod mong kakainin, access to justice or even tapping on the justice system will be the last in your list of concerns. Kasi kailangan mong kumain sa susunod na oras. So, 'yun ang isang problema natin.

May connection talaga 'yung economic status ng mga tao kung bakit nangyayari pa rin ang mga ganu'ng klaseng problema tulad ng gender-based violence. 'Yung statistics na kinoute mo, year after year, palaging mataas ang ranking ng Pilipinas.

Isa rin tayo sa pinakamataas pagdating sa kunyari educational attainment ng mga kababaihan, access to education ng mga kababaihan. Pero 'yun ang problema sa statistics, e. Kasi pag-aaralan mo kung 'yung education na 'yan, nagta-translate ba 'yan in terms of improvement in their quality of life? Kasi ako, kunwari nu'ng nakaraang mga taon, kinwestiyon ko 'yung statistics na 'yan kasi ang tanong ko, "Bakit magpatuloy pa rin na dumarami 'yung paglabas ng mga kababaihan bilang migrant workers?" Mga highly educated college graduates, itong ating mga migrant workers na nagtatrabaho bilang domestic workers sa labas ng bansa.

Bakit sila lumalabas? Pero kasama sila roon sa statistics mo na mataas ang access to education. So, may ganu'ng klaseng disconnect sa statistics na 'yan at saka 'yung realidad. Kasi walang opportunity para sa kanila rito sa bansa. Lalabas at lalabas sila. Kasi kailangan nilang kumayod para mapakain 'yung pamilya sa Pilipinas. So, ganu'ng kasimple 'yung logic, e,'di ba?

HOWIE: Yeah, oo. Gusto ko lang balikan 'yung sinabi mo na we're still predominantly a macho society, kung saan umiiral 'yung machismo nga. So, are you saying may pagka-myth o mythology itong reputation natin, itong ranking na we're the most gender equal society in Asia? And we don't deserve, we don't really deserve that reputation? Dahil 'yun nga, kahit may ganu'ng... halimbawa may ganu'ng tayong political leader na napaka-sexist o misogynistic ang lumalabas sa kaniyang bibig, popular pa rin, mahal pa rin siya ng mga babae.

So, I've been trying to understand this. Itong parang seeming contradiction. Pero sinasabi mo ang reality is itong statistics ay hindi talaga nagre-reflect kung ano 'yung tunay na sitwasyon.

EDNA: Oo. Saka 'yung attitude kay Duterte, ano 'yan, e, it's a cultural problem. And you know, you and I work in the cultural sphere and we know that culture change is the most difficult, the most challenging aspect of social change to happen. 'Yun ang realidad. Hindi myth 'yung mga achievement na naganap tungkol sa usapin na 'yan ng gender equality. Hindi myth 'yan pero problematic siya.

At hindi siya dapat nagtatapos sa pagtingin lang sa mga numero. Kailangan pag-aralan, ano ba ang kuwento sa likod ng numero? At 'yun nga, sabi ko, tingnan na lang natin 'yung kuwento ng mga migrant worker na babae. Bakit patuloy na dumarami ang lumalabas at nagte-take ng risk na maging domestic workers sa mga bansa na kung saan chances are aabusuhin sila?

Bakit lalabas at lalabas pa rin? Kasi ekonomiya, pagkain, pag-aaral, housing. 'Yun ang basic na motivations nila. Pakialam ba nila kung si Digong ay nambastos ng babae? Basta nagbibigay ng kasayahan sa kanila, panandaliang kasayahan na mayroong presidente who can make jokes about them as women. Wala 'yan. Basta kayod lang sila. 'Yun lang, ganoon ang basic attitude. And babaguhin mo 'yan. And how do you change that? Mahabang kuwento 'yung culture change na 'yan.

HOWIE: Okay, I have a final question lang about gender. Nu'ng 2022 presidential campaign, madalas na-highlight 'yung gender ni former Vice President Leni Robredo, na siya lang 'yung babae rito sa field of men. Minsan pinapakita 'yung mga sapatos. Siya lang 'yung naka-high heels doon sa mga nakaupo sa mga debate, etcetera. Do you think her gender was an advantage or disadvantage to the Philippine electorate?

EDNA: Depende, 'no? I think she inspired many women in terms of 'yung aura niya of being humble, being hardworking, being people-centered, at saka 'yung compassion niya sa mga nasa laylayan. Many women were inspired by that. But on the other hand, I think, babalik ko na naman doon sa survey namin nu'ng pandemic. Tinanong namin sila, ano ang nakikita niyong dapat maging presidente sa susunod na eleksyon 2022?

Lumabas mataas ang ranking. Kailangan matapang. Matapang at hindi kurap. 'Yung dalawang 'yan. So, sa katapangan, medyo nag-low point si VP Leni. Kasi ang hinahanap nilang katapangan, 'yung pinapakita ni Digong noong panahon na 'yun. Hindi kurap, mataas ang puntos ni Leni roon.

Kung si Sara ang tumakbo instead of BBM, mananalo si Sara. Kasi she would fit into that imagined katapangan ng isang babae. So, sa atin, ano, e,  hindi masyadong nag-figure 'yung gender sa eleksyon sa tingin ko. Hindi masyadong napatampok 'yun. Although, as I said, she inspired many. Pero not enough to be able to let's say, win the women's vote. There was no women's vote that could have made her win.

HOWIE: Yeah. Oo. And there could have been women who did not vote for her because she was a woman and thought that she was weak. May ganoon pang ano—
 
Hanggang ngayon may cultural preference para tayong ganoon. Kasi, you and I are old enough to remember the 1986 election, 'yung Snap Election of February 1986. And you also probably still remember the campaign ads of President Marcos Sr. back then who kept highlighting the gender of his opponent, Cory Aquino. Parang, oo, 'yung babae lang ako.

EDNA: Housewife.

HOWIE: Housewife. Oo. So, which also apparently did not work kasi nanalo pa rin si Cory. But obviously, there was a belief that that would turn off voters as far back as then, 1986. Pero, even then, Filipino, many Filipino voters were willing to vote for a woman. Of course, that was far from the only issue back then. So, maybe Cory won despite being a woman. Baka may mga na-turn off pa rin ng kaniyang gender. Pero, of course, there were probably much larger issues back then.

EDNA: Yes. At saka ang context noon vis-a-vis gender and women, ibang-iba sa panahon ngayon. Mas maraming choices ngayon. Tapos, mas maraming choices, mas maraming factors na pag-aaralan, na puwedeng option sa mga tao maliban sa gender ng isang kandidato.

HOWIE: I mentioned '86 na. So, I want to go back to those times. You were already an activist then. You've been an activist all your life.

EDNA: 70s, Howie.

HOWIE: 70s ba? Okay.

EDNA: First Quarter Storm.

HOWIE: So, First Quarter Storm was 1970? 1970. So, 'yun ang umpisa mo talaga, 1970.

EDNA: Yeah.

HOWIE: So, 70s and all the way up to now. So, and you've been through a lot. Your husband, also Alex has been through a lot, was also imprisoned. Nagulat ako na even your mother was imprisoned.

EDNA: Yeah. My mother, my sister, and Alex were detained, arrested.

HOWIE: Yeah. And you? All of you. So, yeah. So, you were really very immersed in this activity. Was there anything you regret about being an activist?

EDNA: Okay. Being an activist, no regrets. But, having not studied enough in terms of choices to be made, yes, there were regrets. I have to be honest. Noong panahon na 'yun, napuwersa naman kami mag-underground kasi lahat kami under threat na. So, you know, wala ng ibang posisyon nu'ng kundi the National Democratic Movement. If you're part of the National Democratic Movement, you believe in armed struggle.

And later on, you were led towards being enthralled by the the image of a socialist state, communist party as the vanguard in all of those things. So, at a very young age, with very limited exposure to other schools of thought, 'yun siguro ang regret ko. I did not study enough. I did not have the opportunity to study enough and get exposed.

But activism per se, I think it's still the most important part of my life na hindi ko lang iniisip ang sarili ko. And, you know, and my radar every day until now at age 71 is still about what's happening in society.

And that's I think it's a gift na I will always cherish na you're always looking at, you know, doing something good for others. And it aligns with my own foundation as a Christian. Ganu'n. Nu'ng bata pa ako. Because I was brought up as a Baptist by my mom. So, 'yun ang ano, 'yun ang reflection ko.

Pero kung magbibigay ako ng advice, actually tinanong ako ng anak ko nu'ng nasa La Salle siya. Iniimbita raw siya na sumali in one of those youth organizations ng militante. So, sabi ko sa kaniya, "Anak, hindi kita pipigilan. Pero suggest, ang maa-advice ko lang sa 'yo, magbasa ka pa. Study history. And, you know, take critical thinking as one of your ano, as one of your foundations or your pursuit."

So, sumunod naman ang anak ko. So, until, until he passed away. Because he died in 2022. He became an independent progressive person, progressive minded person. He brought up his daughters on those values that we brought him, that we taught him as his parents.

Pero very careful siya about being organizationally stuck without knowing kung ano 'yung papasukan niya. Pero he was very courageous. And same with my two other children. So, 'yun. 'Yung kanilang sensitivity sa mga paligid nila are comparable to those of activists. Pero naging matindi sa kanila 'yung pagnu-nurture ng kanilang individuality, as independent persons with their own minds, and, you know, making choices on the basis of well-studied options.

'Yun ang ano, 'yun siguro 'yung masasabi ko na I should have done that. Pero walang opportunity kasi nga nag-underground na kaagad. I was even dropped... I even dropped out of college because of Martial Law. So, 'yun, 'yun ang ano, 'yun siguro ang regret ko.

And then, of course, regret ko rin na there were episodes in life where, you know, sometimes activism made me make harsh judgments also in life, you know. Dumaan din ako riyan. Parang you think... ang black and white ang tingin mo sa mga buhay-buhay kasi nga, survival ang ano mo, e. Nasa survival mode ka palagi. So, wala kang middle ground. Ganu'n.

So, and 'yun siguro 'yung ano, 'yun siguro 'yung cost of having to live through those dark years of Martial Law. Wala kang choices talaga. Every day is a survival, you know, mode.

HOWIE: 'Yun nga. So, it was very difficult to be an activist in those days. Libu-libo nga 'yung nakulong, napatay. But, you know, sometimes veterans, activist veterans of Martial Law will tell younger people na "Suwerte pa nga kayo ngayon, e, 'di ba? Napakahirap nu'ng panahon namin, nu'ng Martial Law." Totoo ba 'yun?

EDNA: Depende kung ano 'yung degree ng involvement mo, e. Kasi kunwari kung ico-compare ko 'yung 15 years of Marcos Martial Law. 15 years, '72 to '86. Sa 15 years. Ang latter years na 'yun, maluwag na. Mas malaki na 'yung democratic space.

But comrades who stayed in the underground continued to live a difficult life. Nasa underground sila. They chose to be in the underground. I'm one of those who chose to work above ground and build networks, build organizations of artists. And that's where I first met you.

Kaya 'pag nagsabi na mas mahirap ng panahon namin, anong period ng Martial Law ang tinutukoy na mahirap? Ganoon. Sa ngayon, kung titingnan ko 'yung nangyayari sa ngayon, may sariling difficulty ang mga aktibista ngayon kasi ang dami-daming kalaban. Nandiyan 'yung kalaban mo ang disinformation because of social media. Nandiyan 'yung problema ng navigating the terrain of government institutions na akala mo ay, na mayroon kang premise na madali mong kakausapin kasi civil servants sila pero very corrupt.

Nandiyan 'yung walang tigil na stereotyping sa 'yo 'pag ikaw ay maingay sa komunidad. At nandiyan na rin siyempre, kasama na riyan 'yung usapin ng red tagging. Mas complex ang sitwasyon sa ngayon. Hindi siya madali, sa totoo lang. Seemingly maluwag siya. Kasi may environment ka na nakakakilos ka supposedly na maluwag. Pero may sarili siyang complexities na wala nu'ng panahon namin.

Ang panahon namin straight forward, e. Lalo na nu'ng past, the last 5 years from 19... nu'ng panahon ng papal visit na lumuwag. Nagkaroon ng attempt ng election na. First time na nag-election. Lumuwag na, e. Lumuwag naman talaga. Halos wala ka na... hindi mo na nararamdaman 'yung Martial Law except probably if you're in the countryside, raging or part of the NPA.

So 'yun ang mga difficulty talaga. Pero kung mga tulad namin na kumikilos na above ground, hindi, e. Nagra-rally tayo as Concerned Artists of the Philippines, you know. Pero straight forward. Madali mong basahin 'yung environment kumbaga nu'ng panahon na 'yun. And we don't have that now. Mas complex ang gumawa ka ng political analysis. Ngayon mas complex siya.

HOWIE: What do you miss most about the past?

EDNA: Siguro ano... I miss most 'yung rigors ng pag-aaral. Kasi as an activist in an organized way, naging member ako ng underground, we studied. Nag-aaral kami kahit papaano, kahit na sabihin ko na sana mas malawak ang pinag-aaralan. Wala kami masyadong espasyo, wala kaming mobile phones, wala kaming social media kaya kung hindi ka kumikilos, kung hindi ka gumagawa ng political task mo, nag-aaral ka. I miss that.

I miss the camaraderie na sabay-sabay kayong kumakain. Kung may ulam, may kakainin kayo. Sabay-sabay kayong kakain. I miss the camaraderie. I miss activism na may impact ka kaagad sa gusto mong gawin.

Isang halimbawa na lang. Panahon nang nasa Concerned Artists of the Philippines ako, namatay si Ninoy. Nagkita-kita sa Sto. Domingo Church, Sabi ni Lino, "Gawa tayo ng Concerned Artists of the Philippines." Kinabukasan may Concerned Artists of the Philippines na. Ang bilis. Ang bilis kumilos. Ang bilis gumawa ng aksyon. I miss those.

I miss those thousands and thousands of mobilization. Nu'ng libing ni Ninoy, libing ni Lean Alejandro. Kasama mong mga nagmamartsa kayo. Miles and miles of marches. I miss those. Now, you know. Parang 'pag may mga mobilization until puwede pa ako, hahanapin mo 'yung mga usual familiar faces. Otherwise, hindi ka... You're just... Hindi mo na sila kilala. So ang hirap mag-strike ng conversation. So, 'yun ang ano.

Kaya lately, I've stopped going na to rallies. Kasi parang it's not for me anymore. I prefer one-on-one conversation or meetings, where you can really share your stories like what we're doing now.

HOWIE: What do you appreciate most about the present?

EDNA: I really like the energy of the young people. Parang nabubuhayan ako ng loob sa nakikita kong assertion nila. Nai-inspire ako sa mga ano, sa mga creative natin. Very robust pa rin ang production ng mga artwork natin. Nai-inspire ako ng mga kaibigan sa media na patuloy na nakikibaka. Although nakikita ko 'yung mga challenge.

Nai-inspire ako ng mga ilang headway na nagaganap sa komunidad. Kahit papaano may mga sariling kayod. 'Yung mga non-activist na community organizer, nakikita ko sila, nakaka-inspire 'yun. Kasi talagang on their own. 'Yun ang mga tunay na social change actor sa tingin ko, e, on their own without any support. Sige lang larga lang sila.

And I think I saw that... I saw that very much during the Leni-Kiko campaign. Kasi umikot ako. At nakita ko 'yung sinasabi mo kanina. On their own, kumikilos sila. 'Yun nga lang, ang regret nga lang doon is that hindi na nasu-sustain, hindi nasalo.

But otherwise--- Yeah. Otherwise globally, nakakalungkot 'yung nangyayari. Nakakalungkot na Trump might have a comeback. Nakakalungkot 'yung nangyayari sa UK ngayon. So many backsliding in the UK, a country that I love second to the Philippines. And nakakatakot ang China sa kaniyang aggression, you know.

HOWIE: Kasi napaka-involved ka ngayon sa mga social media campaign tulad ng #BabaeAko and then, more recently 'yung tungkol sa seniors sa panahon ng COVID. Paano naka-influence ang digital landscape at digital technology in general sa promotion and protection ng karapatang pagtao?

EDNA: Malaki ang influence niya in so far as dissemination of information. Pero nakakadismaya na ang babaw lang ng naaabot. So speed of information, okay siya. Pero at the same time, ang kabilang mukha naman nu'n 'yung ang lakas ng disinformation, ang hirap kalaban 'yung disinformation. And 'yung click culture ng like nang like tapos hindi naman binabasa.

Hindi ako ganu'n kabilib pagdating sa algorithm na you have so many thousands, kunwari of followers as 'yung panahon namin ng seniors sa Panahon ng COVID, we have 35,000. Sa Leni, we have almost 15,000... 13,000. Panahon ng election. Hindi ako...

Nakakatuwa pero hindi ako bilib du'n, e, kasi 'pag nagtatawag na ako ng, you know, "Let's take this to the next level," kaunti lang ang responses. So ganu'n. So mabilis. Pero nakakatuwa siya kasi 'pag nasapul mo 'yung... nag-post ka ng something that really, really interest, then you get so many likes. Nakakatuwa pero hanggang du'n lang, e. Kaya may limit talaga 'yung digital landscape. May limit siya talaga. Hindi siya maaasahan.

HOWIE: How do you perceive the current state of human rights in the Philippines?

EDNA: In the Philippines?

HOWIE: Saan ba tayo... Yeah, in the Philippines. Saan ba tayo advance kung ikukumpara sa ibang bansa, the rest of the world? And saan naman tayo nahuhuli?

EDNA: I think 'yung advances natin would be in the field of ano, e... ‘yung may basic awareness in terms of karapatan, "Hindi mo puwedeng gawin sa akin 'to kasi ganito, kasi bawal 'yan, nasa batas 'yan." May ganu'ng klaseng kalakhan na awareness compared let's say nu'ng panahon ni Marcos. Pero ano na-achieve natin niyan? Over the decades hindi 'yan nangyari basta-basta.

There are certain sectors of society na kailangan maingat ka na kasi sensitized sila in terms of what is acceptable or not. Even if they don't label that as a human rights problem, alam nila may awareness of what is... kunwari na lang sa seniors, you know. Hindi ka na puwedeng gumawa ng joke ngayon sa mga woke na senior kasi alam nila what is ageism.

At lalo na sa mga person with disabilities. Ang taas-taas ng level ng awareness ng mga PWD na woke. Nakakatuwa sila. So 'yun ang ano. So may headways naman talaga. Hindi ko 'yan aalisin, in terms of basic awareness ng rights.

Ang problema ko talaga as I've been saying all along during this interview is that where human rights should matter? Meaning to say 'yung mga kababayan natin nasa laylayan,  hindi pa tayo nakakagawa ng ganu'ng klaseng impact sa kanila sa buhay nila.

I think I can concretize this by saying... Kunwari sa mga senior citizen sa mga poor and depressed community, ang tingin pa rin ng senior citizens sa kanilang karapatan ay ayuda. Kung ano 'yung makukuha nilang tulong ng kanilang mga LGUs. Hindi nila... Ang layo layo nila ru'n sa usapin ng karapatan kasi hindi man lang sila aware na we have so many laws on senior citizens' rights. So 'yun ang ano, malaking gap sa usapin ng where rights matter, we are not making an impact.

Kasi sila 'yung mas nangangailangan ng rights. Hindi 'yung ako na edukado, na comfortable ang buhay ko. Pero ako 'yung may mataas na awareness about rights. Pero hanggang hindi ko 'yan magamit, para mapaintindi ko 'yan sa kapuwa ka-seniors ko na mga nasa laylayan, walang silbi 'yung aking awareness na 'yan.

And we have... We have to bridge that gap kasi otherwise, tayo-tayo lang ang nakakaintindi. Hindi natin talaga mababago 'yung lipunan. Kasi kung saan siya dapat kailangan gawin, e, hindi natin naaabot. So sa akin, ganu'ng kasimple. Mga tindera sa palengke, hanggang ngayon baon sa utang sa mga lender. Mga suki ko sa palengke, akala mo maganda 'yung paninda nila, maraming bumibili pero labas-pasok 'yung pera.

Mamayang kaunti nandiyan na, nag-aabang na 'yung nangongolekta ng utang nila. So nakakalungkot. Ganu'n. Kasi marami, may batas tayo about usury. But hindi man lang alam nu'ng tindera kong suki na mayroon pa lang batas na dapat proteksyunan siya against usury. So 'yun ang problema, e. Ang layo-layo. Ang dami nating achievements pero woke pa rin ang nakaka-enjoy nu'n. Hindi 'yung mga dapat makikinabang talaga. And we have to do something about that.

HOWIE: Thank you for that challenge. And it's a good point to end on, Edna. So magpapaalam na kami. Gusto namin magpasalamat. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and memories. Edna Aquino, human rights campaigner and activist for 50 years. Maraming salamat sa inyong paglilingkod sa lipunan. Mabuhay ka.

EDNA: Maraming salamat sa opportunity. Maraming salamat.